Here's another thought. You could try it once -- wait an additional 1 -2 weeks after the 11th week. If it feels like a vacation from the w/d -- you still get to decide whether that's worth it to you or not.
If, however, you continue to feel crappy, or even feel worse -- then it means you're in poop-out and you're not going to get a benefit from going even slower. Then, you just have to soldier on at a survivable pace with no expectation of getting to a neutral patch before the next drop.
Meds free since June 2005.
"An initiation into shamanic healing means a devaluation of all values, an overturning of the profane world, a peeling away of inveterate handed-down notions of the world, liberation from everything preconceived. For that reason, shamanism is closely connected with suffering. One must suffer the disintegration of one's own system of thought in order to perceive a new world in the higher space."
-- Holger Kalweit
I recall the end of last taper I had about 2 weeks of feeling near-normal! It was really good. I face the danger then of not wanting to drop again! But I'm sure you will keep me going! I probably shouldn't read other peopl's stuff! I read how people say that they get better and better with each drop and it gets easier... blah! I have to realise I am on my own journey and YES IT'S MARATHON. I never liked long running races as a kid, just the short quick ones!Originally Posted by Sheila
What I meant by mild rewards was you getting to look forward to 1 - 2 weeks of feeling neutral or with only mild symptoms. Your w/d symptoms are so grueling, that my thinking was that it would be good for you physically and emotionally to know that you get 1 - 2 weeks off from the grueling suffering before you do the next taper.
It sounds like there is not much question about the first 8 - 9 weeks. You have to wait that long before your next taper. The question is -- do you just take the 10th and 11th week as your mild reward, or do you try adding another week or two to see if you get better quality of life, a mini-vacation, before you do the next drop.
I am not trying to persuade you in any way. I genuinely don't feel like I know the answer. It's just an optionfor you to consider. Of course I think we want to get you off this stuff. And if you're never going to feel well in the taper, then maybe you should just soldier on. But, if it were possible for you to build in mini-vacations, would another week or two per drop be such a bad thing, or might it lighten your load? I don't know.
In answer to your other question, yes, absolutely, people can get worse as they get farther from the drop.
Anyway, you are doing a yeoman's job. I really admire you. And this *will* pay off for you. You'll live a much longer, happier, healthier life because you got off this poison.
<--- gD on her marathon
What is a yeoman anyway?
I don't mind what you say, please feel free to suggest anything you like! I'm open to all advice and appreciate you and the time you take to reply!
I did say I would do 2 more drops at 5% but after this one I don't know I will do the second one, but am seriously considering doing 2..5% drop. You did say earlier about experimenting, so I think I might. I am just worried that if it doesn't change anything for the good, will I have trouble going back to 5% drop because a lot of what I have read says consistency is the key. I guess I keep hoping that each drop will improve. I had one good drop at 7.7 and tapered after 4 weeks! That was so weird I am wondering if I accidentally up-dosed! I was hoping that sort of thing might happen again too. I would like to think it would ease symptoms and that I might even be able to drop sooner.
Yeoman -- http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/yeoman
I don't think you need to worry about trying one 2.5 % drop and then returning to 5 %. As long as you wait the requisite time after the 2.5 one, that's a very reasonable course of action. And, If you feel an interest in experimenting in that way, I think it sounds like a worthwhile experiment. You will get some new data from the attempt.
One very important thing I see going on with you is that you are learning tons and taking an increasingly conscious, studious approach to your own taper and healing. It is not going to be possible to control everything, but this approach will give you as much say-so in your life as is humanly possible in this very complex process that we are all having to figure out by trial and error.
Meds free since June 2005.
"An initiation into shamanic healing means a devaluation of all values, an overturning of the profane world, a peeling away of inveterate handed-down notions of the world, liberation from everything preconceived. For that reason, shamanism is closely connected with suffering. One must suffer the disintegration of one's own system of thought in order to perceive a new world in the higher space."
-- Holger Kalweit
Mrs. Snail back again dropping in for a cuppa. I wanted to put in a turtle but couldn't find one. Couldn't get the little pics to work today either!
Okay, today I am better. I think the revved up vibrations and pressure heads affect how I think too - I begin to dwell on the tapers, etc andmaybe worry. I just know that yesterday I was angry, irritated and annoyed and I am not usually like that. Well, having said that, I wouldn't know what I am like from what I have read the meds make you dull and numb,so perhaps I've forgotten how I used to be 17 years ago! Or else it is just the w/d and recent drop.
I really appreciate you kind comments and intelligent suggestions! I am leaning more and more towards the lesser drop of 2.5% next time especially with the encouragement that it will be okay. The hard thing about all this is that there is no one "rule of thumb" that works by the sounds of it!
Today the head pressure has come down from sky high and so I am thinking much better and feel more calm about it all. Oh, boy, that is so good. Week 4 is usually worse again, but it would be SO NICE if the pressure heads stayed away, so here's hoping...
I just tried to "go advanced" to do little pics and still not working. All I got was another "reply to thread" come up????
Anyway, I have now ascertained that tapers can be different depending on whether you are in "poop out" or not. I do not know if I am or not. However, others have told me that after 17 years I probably am.
What we (hubby and I) don't understand and would like your opinion on is this:
If poop out means meds no longer working - then you should be able to stop taking it
If you have w/d symptoms from tapers, then it must be still working and this is what causes the symptoms.
This is what makes sense to us but doesn't seem to be the case!
on my 12 years on paxil, i was maybe 6 years in poop out tolerance,
in tolerance, the med do no more work enough, but as you are hooked, you have to taper slowly to not shocke the body systems
12 years paxil(9 years only 10 mg) - cold turkey(1,5 month) and switch celexa tapered 1 year 20 mg
62 years old - for GAD - 4 years 3 months meds free [since april 2009]
vegetables soup - orange (vit C) - curcuma - some meat or fish
Howdy, Mrs. Snail!
1) I was thinking about you last night and my hit is that that, if you go to a 2.5 % taper, you might have fewer symptoms, and might be able to taper a little faster. You might not even have to wait 8 weeks between drops. Then, I logged on and see that you are thinking in the same vein.
2) I still struggle to remember this -- that when you're having physical w/d symptoms and you're also emotionally upset, the emotions are largely w/d symptoms too. The emotions feel so real, and we *do* have reasons to be upset, so it's very confusing.
3) Tapering in poop-out. If you have reached tolerance or poop-out, it means that, even on your full dose, your body is in w/d. Your body has habituated to that dose of drug. It doesn't work as well any more. And your body wants more of the drug to maintain the physical changes that years at the full dose have caused.
However, just because the drug is not working very well, does not mean it is not doing something. In other words, your body is dependent on the drug -- as Stan says -- and the drug is doing many things. But it's not doing enough to 1) achieve the main goal of emotional support or 2) keep you out of w/d. You are in w/d.
Now, if you quit cold turkey or taper too fast, you make the w/d much worse. So, although you are already in w/d, and have to make the w/d somewhat worse in order to get off the poison, you want to give your body time to make changes as you go down slowly -- as Stan says.
<< -- me, sometimes, not even moving forward as fast as a snail...just going back and forth, back and forth....
Meds free since June 2005.
"An initiation into shamanic healing means a devaluation of all values, an overturning of the profane world, a peeling away of inveterate handed-down notions of the world, liberation from everything preconceived. For that reason, shamanism is closely connected with suffering. One must suffer the disintegration of one's own system of thought in order to perceive a new world in the higher space."
-- Holger Kalweit
gD -- When you say 2.5 %, you mean 2.5 % of original dose, right?
It occurred to me last night to calculate what my taper was in that way. I started at 20 mg. At 8 mg, I switched from pills to liquid. Then, I went down by 0.4 mg, which is 2% of my original dose. I did a drop every 2-3 weeks, which was the absolute fastest I could tolerate.
Note, that I was also taking a full dose of Prozac at the time "to help" with the taper. That was the thinking in 2003, and I do *not* recommend this. But, it may have protected me somewhat, in that I might not have been able to drop every 2-3 weeks without it. In 2003, going as slow as I went was very unusual and I felt like I was being conservative. Now, that is not a conservative taper at all! Now, I would go slower and skip the Prozac.
Anyway, this hopefully shows you that you are not alone in having to go slow.
Meds free since June 2005.
"An initiation into shamanic healing means a devaluation of all values, an overturning of the profane world, a peeling away of inveterate handed-down notions of the world, liberation from everything preconceived. For that reason, shamanism is closely connected with suffering. One must suffer the disintegration of one's own system of thought in order to perceive a new world in the higher space."
-- Holger Kalweit
I love your penguin! Actually I got to thnking about my turtle and your rabbit/hare and remembered the childhood story of the hare and the tortoise - and I rememberd that the tortoise got there first! Now that was an encouraging thought! Especially since we all tend to want to get off the "poison" real fast, but have learnt that going faster doesn't necessarily mean getting their quicker!gD -- When you say 2.5 %, you mean 2.5 % of original dose, right?
2.5% is from my previous dose, if that's what you mean. The figures I am going by were given to me by Pokie at pp.
I am extremely grateful for your comments and how you are thinking about us, you are so kind
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