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Thread: Moui's mumblings.....

  1. #1
    Senior Member Moui's Avatar
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    Moui's mumblings.....

    I've been meaning to start a journal for a while because my posts about my situation are so spread out (on both forums). It makes it hard for me to keep track of my progress as well. I'm living in a different reality today than last Fall...

    Second time I make this thread (cat decided to pull the plug as I was going to send it). Maybe I'll make a wall of text at some point but here a quick summary:

    (Edit- well it ended up a small wall anyway:)

    I'm a 25 yr old guy from Finland. I have original problems which I was in semi-denial about pre-meds (low self esteem, overly critical of myself, social anxiety, an overthinker - neurotic to the bone no doubt about it, lacking clear goals and bad life&stress management). Many life events which led to these. But I did not go on the drug mainly for these reasons, but 2 panic attacks separated by months of ok. I did not recognize these as panic attacks and as my heart was beating out of my chest I thought there was something wrong with it and went to a cardiologist. He prescribed the citalopram 20mg. This happened during a time of high stress and studies, and like I mentioned a lack of knowing where I was going in life and I think both panic attacks happened after a weekend of binge-drinking. I also used to drink coffee by the buckets and had lost tons of weight. We also had problems with our band and our singer decided to leave.

    I'm a relative short termer (2009 December) on and off citalopram. But I have more going on than pure withdrawal. I've had a very adverse relation to citalopram from the beginning and a bad reaction to the normal dose of 20mg (akathisia, complete insomnia for days, tactile hallucinations etc) and more nasty neurological side-effects cropping up in the later part of my drug use (pain episodes). I've had to dabble with sub-therapeutic doses as even 10mg was too much, 5-2.5 range. Longest time off was 2010 summer - 2011 summer. I did not know I was in wd, I thought I had lost my mind.
    Eventually got back on the drug (yeah, I don't learn so fast..you have to understand for a very long time I blamed 'me' and not the drug) so I could re-join normal societal activities and after the initial dabbling with doses and the start-up mess I felt much better and went on to complete my military service, yay whee everything in the past.
    Until my last, and absolutely worst, attempt to quit 2.5mg last July (2012). Most of what happened is still a bit hazy to me but I do remember some bits, like pacing back and forth in the kitchen looking at the microwave clock every couple of seconds- for about 4 hours without understanding what time it was.. I was utterly f'd up as I had both severe WD and start-up symptoms (I took a lot more than 2.5 in a desperate attempt to pull myself out of the pit. I think I took like 10mg or so in a frantic panic and confusion.) I did not sleep for days, I don't think I ate.. I don't remember most of what I did except keep looping a running track outside the apartment. I remember I was close to suicide. I remember it because it was so scary as I somewhere realized deep down that that's really it.. it's over, end, finito no more and I was so scared of that thought. I was going to down a lot of alcohol and stumble in front of the metro, make it look like I had been celebrating the end of the army time and spare my family of the stigma.
    Well it settled down (first gradually and after a few days very suddenly at 2.5mg) and the severe symptoms vanished in less than an hour and have not since returned. This is when I googled and found PaxilProgress. The rest of the summer and much of last fall I was still very much whacked-in-the-head-with-a-tire-iron but no more severe stuff. I've since had to make forced drops due to the pain-state side-effect and am down to 1mg and feeling good (put into perspective- possibly the best I have since early childhood, probably due to many lifestyle changes) at the moment, but scared shitless, even if I act here sometimes as if I'm not.. For almost a year I have been completely off the grid and I've moved back in with my mom. I'm not even unemployed as the shock of WD not being recognized completely outcasted me from everything. But I'm now starting therapy and carefully rejoining society again while continuing to slowly taper off this miniscule crumb.

    Edit:
    My main fear is that I have some sort of hyper-sensitivity to the drug OR it builds up in my system due to a metabolism issue. I would have to add that on 5mg I felt good but I was zonked out of it.. I slept through the days. I used to go to the gym even then and I remember I would just stop my bike next to a bench and sleep for an hour and continue.. I used to watch youtube videos with the laptop on top of my chest, fall asleep, wake up and just continue. Every day was like that but I didn't question it, I was happy. Like being drunk for months.
    That said on the lower doses I'm feeling sharper all the time so the build-up theory sort of goes out of the window. I have recently started to dream again and they are getting more vivid. I still feel a bit like I'm in a cotton cloud haze.. but it could be mild derealization.

    There might not be much happening in this thread for a while if things don't change for me..
    Acceptance. Time. Habit.

  2. #2
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    hi hon, Im glad you started a journal here..

    how long have you been at 1mg now? if I were you I would hold there for 6 months before strting to taper again. then you might look at micro tapering with long holds in between, its sounds like things are good for you now and hopefully you will be able to keep them that way and also get off this last 1mg

    also I belive that the lower doses move out of your system quicker so I cant see any build up issues happening.
    Put on citalopram July 2009 during a physical illness - didnt need it. 40mg
    went down to 20mg July 2010 CT in Jan 2012 - 2.5 years on.
    Tried to restart July 2012 due to 1 panic attack (never had one before - start of CT W/D) - adverse reaction
    Down to 1.5mg from the failed RI
    Now at 0.48 and trying to stabalize - been 6 weeks
    now have SEVERE anxiety, akathsia, feel like Im on acid 24/7 depression, D/P, signed off work. Scared of everything..please God let me heal from this

  3. #3
    Senior Member Moui's Avatar
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    I honestly can't remember how long it's been.. that's one reason why I need to start journaling. I would have to go through old posts to see when things happened. I remember I had the pain stuff, made teeny tiny drop ..still felt like my left eye wanted to leave the eye-socket and some really weird odd sensations, made a couple more minidrops.. and few more, felt good and I think I made one more just in case. WD-wise either it's been delayed (it always has been 1-2month) or it's just been so ridiculously mild. I DID have some very weak depression. I didn't even recognize it at first I just felt chronicly bored at everything (posted about this in Aberdeens journal) but that too went. Nothing changed in my routine but now I'm interested in things again. And I get some guilt surges. I feel guilty at what I post.. guilty at not doing things, guilt this guilt that. There's a word in finnish 'morkkis', it's short for 'moral hangover' for the stupid stuff you do when drunk and the guilt and shame and angst that follows. It feels like that.. I felt guilty after seeing the therapist. It just makes no sense. Then it passes. Honestly, who knows maybe that's ME.. I've been on this mind trip I don't remember who I was before. I know I've grown and the guy who used to shake like a leaf when giving a presentation has also given marching orders to half a company of men.. but what was me, what was me on-mind-steroids..

    I just hope I don't get any of that pain stuff.. it's not unbearable, the last few were milder but it feels so unnatural. I can imagine my neurons popping and cracking and it frightens me.. then after the drops I just generally feel healthier. In a way I want to make more drops to prevent it from happening again but yeah I shouldn't hurry off either..
    Acceptance. Time. Habit.

  4. #4
    Founder Sheila's Avatar
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    Welcome formally to IAWP, Moui!

    I’m so sorry you have been through this hell. It does sound like you have grown and learned enormously from it. Even though you were “under the influence” at the time, I think you’ll get to keep that developmental achievement of leading men.

    No, the drug is definitely not going to be built up in your system. Even if it were, your body is constantly detoxing itself and replacing cells.

    The guilt surges are probably partly your psychological issues and largely neurological magnification of those issues. WD has a way of doing an extra-deep cleanse of your psyche.

    …last July (2012). Most of what happened is still a bit hazy to me but I do remember some bits, like pacing back and forth in the kitchen looking at the microwave clock every couple of seconds- for about 4 hours without understanding what time it was..
    This reminds me of me when I was tapering *and* having serotonin syndrome in February ’04. Did you, by any chance, ever look at the clock and find it was two minutes *earlier* than when you had looked last? Or look at the clock and see it was the same time for more than one minute?
    Meds free since June 2005.

    "An initiation into shamanic healing means a devaluation of all values, an overturning of the profane world, a peeling away of inveterate handed-down notions of the world, liberation from everything preconceived. For that reason, shamanism is closely connected with suffering. One must suffer the disintegration of one's own system of thought in order to perceive a new world in the higher space."
    -- Holger Kalweit

  5. #5
    Senior Member Moui's Avatar
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    Don't get me wrong, there's no leader within this dude and true leadership is something else than just ordering others around. I'm a lightweight babyface kind of guy and it was awkward as hell for me. I just happened to be in the right (wrong?) place at the time and had done my job well so when the higher ranks left for some weeks they gave some of their duties to me. But what I did learn (I think thanks to living with withdrawal for a year) is that even if I wanted to crawl in a hole or let someone else handle it I could actually do things I was scared of.. yes it didn't exactly feel great but I could get it done.
    If I could heal within a reasonable amount of time I would say this experience has been worth it. It's made me appreciate and take care of my body&mind as well. Given me perspective on things... and of course meet some great people (if only virtually). And it really makes you wonder when someone like our neighbour acts like an a*hole if they're just going through something painful themselves. We all know how much anger and rage this thing can create..

    Regarding the clock I don't remember. I had all the paranoid, depressed suicidal thoughts and whole thing, I was so confused and messed up. I would momentarily understand what was going on but then I just 'looped'. And at some point I remember I realized 'oh my god I've been in this spot for hours' and then just keep going. I had to look at photos on my phone to remind me I had not been in that state for years but it was only yesterday I had been joking around with my friends. I did have a honeymoon period but it all crashed down one night. I suspect/(hope) that the confusion was largely thanks to the citalopram start+wd. I don't remember being THAT confused in my previous wd. Derealization,terror, depression/anhedonia, insomnia, burning skin were my major ones.. I had those last July as well, but 10 times more intense. Even though I came off 2.5mg and the first time I came off 5mg ct. And actually it had only been a month or two since I had been on 10mg. So yeah, I fear now that I come off a teeny tiny tiny amount and still get a monster wd... but I'm going to take it slow and go as low as humanly possible.. 0.1 or something like that.
    Acceptance. Time. Habit.

  6. #6
    Founder Sheila's Avatar
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    Ah, Babyface, I think you’re more on your way to being a leader than you think you are…..You’re learning a ton in the bootcamp of psych med hell.

    This w/d will be different from your others. You’re going about it far more consciously and carefully. You know much more. You have developed meditation skills. You’re creating an optimal environment for yourself, including therapy. Very different.
    Meds free since June 2005.

    "An initiation into shamanic healing means a devaluation of all values, an overturning of the profane world, a peeling away of inveterate handed-down notions of the world, liberation from everything preconceived. For that reason, shamanism is closely connected with suffering. One must suffer the disintegration of one's own system of thought in order to perceive a new world in the higher space."
    -- Holger Kalweit

  7. #7
    Senior Member Moui's Avatar
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    Lol!
    Yeah, that's what I mean with the ssri-bootcamp. It's something so much more than anything else I at least have experienced that if we can survive this nothing will phase us as much anymore. I'm young and full of passion and maybe I'm naive but I want to believe it's not just wasted time. And I have noticed this to a degree. I just wish the drug was out of the equation so I would know how much is me.

    The arms race against wd continues..
    Acceptance. Time. Habit.

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    well hopefully because you are going so slowly this withdrawal wont be like it was before....go slow, take long holds, and find a way to go below 0.5...I think you can make your own liquid, I belive theres a tutorial on SA for this.
    Put on citalopram July 2009 during a physical illness - didnt need it. 40mg
    went down to 20mg July 2010 CT in Jan 2012 - 2.5 years on.
    Tried to restart July 2012 due to 1 panic attack (never had one before - start of CT W/D) - adverse reaction
    Down to 1.5mg from the failed RI
    Now at 0.48 and trying to stabalize - been 6 weeks
    now have SEVERE anxiety, akathsia, feel like Im on acid 24/7 depression, D/P, signed off work. Scared of everything..please God let me heal from this

  9. #9
    Senior Member Moui's Avatar
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    Thanks iggy'mdear. I realized I'm actually below 1mg. (the crumb weight and active ingredient weight confuses me) I'm going to hold now. I went through some of my old posts on PP and yeah looking at it that way made me realize I have been going kind of fast maybe and the delay for me has been 1-2 months earlier in the quick tapers. I don't remember when I started going down from 2.5 but in March I was on 1.6, April 1.1 and now *gulp* 0.65. The pain thing just threw me out of the old plan (I was going to taper forever, years maybe). It's worked out so far though, but I notice things happening.. back in the winter I used to say I don't feel young, I felt so drowsy and fatigued all the time. Now I'm starting to feel like 25 again, energy at the gym etc. I feel less of a teflon coating on me. Started to dream somewhere in April after 1.5 years of blankness. The dreams are getting more vivid too. So far it's mostly good but yeah..

    Edit:
    I have to add something for you Caroline because I think you're worrying if you're having an adverse reaction to your tiny dose of citalopram? I don't want to rock your boat so I hesitate what to say, listen to these more experienced people like Sheila and Alto and TTGW.. I think either way you'll have to hold on and grit your teeth for a while there.. but from what you've said I don't think it's adverse reaction and holding and stabilizing as much as possible is the right way:
    1. You were on huge doses (on my standard 20mg 40mg.. my body rejected those amounts) and you could tolerate it. It makes no sense that suddenly a teeny tiny dose has a huge impact and creates akathisia.. maybe it could but I don't know..
    2. You've had improvement while taking the dose and you had worsening when you accidently skipped it?

    For me it was easy to come to the conclusion it was not WD but some adverse side-effect for these reasons:
    I've had so much adverse stuff happening with this drug from the beginning. I've had the same thing before while staying on the same dose for too long.
    I could give a powerpoint lecture on my WD attempts and symptoms which I know by heart (both the 1 year and the 3 day one). That pain was not a part of it. The pain started always 30ish minutes after taking the drug and peaked about 3 hours later, the rest of the day would be spent eyes closed in the bed or meditating. In the morning it was gone and again as I took the drug it started .. it didn't seem to get better on it's own. Skipping the drug or making a big drop made it go away.. same thing happened so many times it was obvious.
    Acceptance. Time. Habit.

  10. #10
    Senior Member Moui's Avatar
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    Ok. Today I had the psychiatrist visit. I just came home and I'm drained.. going through this story time and time again with different people is tiring. I tried to keep my goal in mind (compensation for the therapy) and not to get validation. He seems like a really nice guy. I doubt he believes in (protracted) WD. He did agree I have a sensitivity to the drug and that it was part of what was going on, the starting and stopping. I'll need to see him a few more times at least. He will be in touch with my primary doctor, the one who wrote all the prescriptions. Something that worries me is that my doctor knows about my past problems and I fear the time of that school bullying etc. will come up and then all will be blamed on 'he had problems to begin with'. So I try to word myself this way: I think those pills either caused or triggered those hellish symptoms, I don't believe my mind would have gone to such places without chemical intervention. But it's a dead end road.. they can always just say it might have happened anyway, that I would have developed that crazy depression/anxiety disorder/derealization disorder/ whatever else...
    It's unbeliveable...is there any way to counter that? I can say that during the time off the drug my baseline went up, although super-slow.. Something to remind everyone here is that I truly absolutely believe that this psychiatrist (and everyone else involved, past or present) has my best in mind, and he seemed like a great fellow. I know I'm angry too... but for the most part this hasn't been done to us out of evil. Especially on the doctors part. The drug manufacturers and marketing teams is a different thing perhaps.

    Regarding my state no big change here. Still on the same tiny tiny 0.65mg. I have a notepad file where I write a few lines daily and there have been things happening from the recent drops when I look back at it. I don't bother spamming here because these are minor things. But I have had some very mild depression (could well be natural as well, it's not that ungodly wd depression&anhedonia but it is depression..), which comes and goes. Twice I've had the derealization-lsd-type-primal-crazy-feverish-irrational-fears. I used to have that constant nonstop in wd. Now I've had only a few hours and very mild. I had a month or so of light nausea.

    It's funny how the body and mind react together.. going through that tiring depressing, self-esteem deflating stuff has made a significant drop in my strength practice today.
    Acceptance. Time. Habit.

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