do new receptors grow?

[Samsara]

Hey Sheila....

as we both know this whole topic is extremely complex and to present my thoughts, in a simplistic fashion, will not do justice to the whole subject. Here are a few of my thoughts but keep in mind that I'm still cognitively challenged due to WD and thus, what I found easier to comprehend prior to WD has now become more difficult as the result of WD.

I will present only a FEW thoughts but they hardly cover the topic.

First, I realize that there is a lot of recent discussion in papers and promotion on the theory that AD are capable of creating neurogenesis. I will have to debate that theory (not with you BTW but those who have been promoting that theory to the public) which I have elaborated on at the end of this post.

There are different theories as to what occurs during AD use and WD but I tend to believe that receptors are downregulated since, it follows some basic biological principles in that IF more serotonin (for example) is available between the synapses, then the receptor no longer has to actively participate in it's usual role. Consequently, it downregulates because there is an excess of serotonin lingering between the synapses.

So, this downregulation IMHO cannot produce more receptors but rather, there are fewer receptors acting in their natural state. Almost as if they atrophy from lack of use or purpose.

There is also the complicating factor of tolerance and kindling effects on receptors. These two events create a different situation and thus, pose additional complications. If I'm recalling correctly...... drug tolerance is a desensitized situation whereas kindling is an oversensitization. This oversensitized kindling state can cause more damage to the receptors and the WD effects from kindling are far more serious and far more intense than with "classic" WD syndromes.

Again, I wish to repeat that I'm presenting things in a very simplistic fashion and I wish to relay that I'm not challenging you but rather, just sharing a fraction of what I have come to understand via extensive research and BTW, I do not claim to be an expert nor fully informed. (lol)

This whole subject is extremely complex ..... mind boggling (lol) and one would have to engage in years upon years of academic study to completely understand all of the neurological/biological dynamics that play out, not only within the brain but throughout the entire body.

I do know that neurological changes are not just a matter of alterations in receptor numbers but also have to do with the types and activities of the receptors that may change as a result of exposure to AD and/or subsequent WD syndrome.

For example: over-stimulation and/or under-stimulation of a receptor can have profound effects on other receptors within the brain, entire CNS and body. BTW, I'm only presenting ONE complicating factor. There are many more but it would take forever to present them not to mention, a ton of time to gather and organize all the research papers I have on the subject.

Please keep in mind I'm presenting things in a very primitive and simplistic fashion. Again, this is a very complex but most fascinating subject.

One very basic biological principle is: when a receptor is exposed, for example, to an endogenous hormone our receptors tend to downregulate but if exposed to the exogenous hormone long enough, the remaining receptors can become desensitized and no longer respond in the same fashion to the same level of hormones. The receptors either downregulate and/or become desensitized. So, I find it hard to believe these theories that AD increase the number of receptors.

I think this is a newer theory and one that the pharma companies are promoting since, I'm increasingly seeing more and more reports making such claims. IMHO, it pretty much goes again basic biological principles but perhaps there's something I'm not remembering via the research I have done and/or I'm forgetting something that I had formally studied years ago.

I do know that my mind still can become confused (due to WD induced cognitive problems) about things that it used to be very clear about. (lol)

I still can't read a lot of research papers with ease. Rather, it feels like a mind-blowing endeavour. (lol)

With all that said, I do believe that all the other points you have listed are relevant in regard to the biological dynamics playing out during WD. I only question the first assumption which I realize isn't your assumptions but rather, you have have presented as well as supported by the papers, what is being presented to the public these day in way of AD being effective agents for neurogenesis. BTW, I'm not saying that you are promoting or aligning with this theory. I wish to make that clear.

With all that said, I just find it hard to believe the new receptors can be generated when the brain is swimming in a toxic chemical cesspool created by ADs. They cause destruction rather than construction.

Like I said, perhaps there is something I'm not understanding or my skepticism is extremely high or my cog functioning is too compromised ATM.

I know I'll be in better mental form 6 months from now and thus, more easily able to discuss such subject matter.

BTW, thanks for providing the info re: new cells and GABA. This confirms that we have both recalled things correctly. Good to know that my memory isn't completely wasted. (lol)


Samsara

[Samsara]

PS.

I have only scanned all the previous posts and thus, I may have misinterpreted some points. Hopefully, I will be able to re-read the posts later today.

[Samsara]

For the purposes of clarification within my own mind since, I'm becoming mentally overloaded ATM:

neurogenesis refers to cell repair and regeneration whereas


neuroadaptations refers to cell modification or changes in response to being constantly exposed to a chemical or stimulus.

So drug tolerance and/or kindling effect is a neuroadaptation that occurs (which can be considered "damage") whereas neurogenesis involves repair, regeneration.

BTW, Sheila..........I'm not posting this for your benefit but rather, for my own (lol) and guest that may read this thread in the present and/or a future member.

I'm attempting to clarify a few things within my mind since, this whole AD neurogenesis theory get my F&F into a form of activation and thus, I could be over-reacting and becoming confused due to this reaction.

I guess I have problems associating the term neurogenesis with the use of psychotropic drugs.

Please forgive me if I've created some unnecessary discussion within this thread and please be assured that the presentation of my thoughts were done in a respectful and non-confrontational manner.

I'm always so paranoid that my written words will take on some type of unintentional hard/harsh tone. Okay, it's time for me to get off-line since, my mind is ruminating too much ATM. :)

Can't wait until my cognitive functioning is fully restored since, I won't have to constantly clarify things to myself and I'll be able to read something once or twice and fully comprehend without going into these second guessing, confusion modes.

I even get confused utilizing words that I've used for years. (lol)


Samsara

[Sheila]

Samsara -- I think it's pretty well established that some neurogenesis does occur on ADs in certain parts of the brain. We just don't know whether this is a good thing or not. And ADs also cause decreased blood flow to other neurons, and, yes, downregulation of some receptors. So, there are many different, apparently contradictory effects going on while on ADs.

Not all neurogenesis is created equal. We definitely want the kind that is happening now post-drugs. We don't yet know what the ramifications are of the neurogenesis that occurs while on the meds. Some of that neurogenesis will probably be undone by stopping the meds.

Believe me, I am really an amateur at this. So, feel free to speculate! Think of us both as Renaissance gentleman scholars / alchemists. They did quite well in a self-taught way!

[stan]

Hey Sheila....
With all that said, I just find it hard to believe the new receptors can be generated when the brain is swimming in a toxic chemical cesspool created by ADs. They cause destruction rather than construction.
Samsara

i agree with that too, this recent theory is maybe still a lie,

[Samsara]

=Sheila;1837]Samsara -- I think it's pretty well established that some neurogenesis does occur on ADs in certain parts of the brain. We just don't know whether this is a good thing or not. And ADs also cause decreased blood flow to other neurons, and, yes, downregulation of some receptors. So, there are many different, apparently contradictory effects going on while on ADs.

Not all neurogenesis is created equal. We definitely want the kind that is happening now post-drugs. We don't yet know what the ramifications are of the neurogenesis that occurs while on the meds. Some of that neurogenesis will probably be undone by stopping the meds.

Believe me, I am really an amateur at this. So, feel free to speculate! Think of us both as Renaissance gentleman scholars / alchemists. They did quite well in a self-taught way!

So, if I'm interpreting your words correctly in "bold" text, you're pointing out that I'm mistaken. If this is the case, and with all due respect, I will have to say that you are correct about my mistaken-ness (LOL). Furthermore, if I'm intrepreting things correctly, it appears that I will not be receiving another IWAP Frog Award for my previous posts (LOL).

And if indeed, I am correct in this assumption, this is most upsetting and thus, I believe it will be necessary to redeem myself in some way in order to reduce the risks of losing out on a much cherished opportunity.

So, with this in mind I will post a few research papers that I did find in my files re: neurogenesis and AD usage. I think we may all find them interesting. Apparently, a good part of the neurogenesis created by AD usage occurs in the hippocampus.


I'm going to have to organize my files since, they are a mess and a half which is a reflection of the disorganization that my mind is in. I need to organize the documents into appropriate "subject" files since, I forget what I have researched, not to mention my mind easily become overwhelmed and confused especially when my F&F is activated which regulaly occurs when I read anything that psychiatry publishes. (lol)

Anyway, I will try to post a couple of these documents/papers sometime this evening or tomorrow.


Samsara (Imagining the Glory of Being Awarded another IAWP Amphibian Award)

[Samsara]

i agree with that too, this recent theory is maybe still a lie,

Well Stan, when it comes to anything that psychiatry publishes, I tend to align with what you have stated. I was taught to be skeptical of ALL scientific experiments and to question HOW the experiments were conducted, under what conditions etc. Same goes for clinical trials.

Thing is: these scientific studies are conducted with a goal (bias) and many times they will manipulate the conditions, the subject and even their findings in order to support whatever theory they are trying to prove. Most times, their findings are limited but they exaggerate the significance of their findings and then publish them as being fact or truth.

We all know that psychiatry cannot be trusted. In all fairness though, psychiatry is not the only medical speciality that has ridden on false theories. Just about every area of medicine has failed in way of their co-called "theories" despite their theories being based on sound scientific studies. All these theories have turned out to be inaccurate and/or very limited in it's scope of understanding not to mention they are, many times, conducted with corrupt intentions and/or compromised conditions due to the pharma companies interests.

Scientists cannot be trusted and scientific studies are not always "sound" and as we all know that's a whole subject in of itself. (lol)

With all that said, I'm not claiming to be an expert by any means in regard to analyzing their studies since, I'm not a scientist nor a pharmachologist, neurologist etc. etc.

But apparently, acccording to some of the papers I have, AD are suppose to induce a degree of neurogenesis in the hippocampus.

Lately, as I mentioned in a previous post, AD are really being heavily promoted as neurogenic. My F&F gets ignited when I read anything positive associated with AD especially for the reason that you have mentioned Stan. We can't trust anything that psychiatry puts out there. They're in fear mode these days since, their past theories are now being proven wrong and thus, they must now develop a new theory to secure their careers, not to mention the pharma companies need to maintain a market for their toxic drugs.

Anyway, as you can see from my previous posts, my mind does tend to become confused when I have to think too much (lol) not to mention when it gets activated by anything to do with psychiatry since, I have anger, fear, distrust and so many negative feelings associated with the profession. :) So, my negative biases do come into play. I wish to disprove anything they proclaim to be fact/truth. :)


Samsara

[Samsara]

"Lately, as I mentioned in a previous post, AD are really being heavily promoted as neurogenic."


I utilized the term "neurogenic" instead of "neurogenesis" but I'm sure you all know what I was trying to say (lol).


Anyway, I will make a correction to this statement in my previous post. I should have said:

Lately, it appears that AD are being heavily promoted as very effective therapuetic interventions to initiate and produce neurogenesis.

This bothers me a LOT! With that said, I realize that we all are bothered by the promotion of ADs.


Samsara

[Samsara]

Rather than post extremely lengthy papers on the subject of neurogenesis I decided to post a very brief summary of what occurs during the process of neurogenesis.

Once a neuronal cell is born it goes through a developmental process that involves the following stages:

1) proliferation

2) migration into the granule cell layer

3) differentiation

4) integration into existing hippocampal neuronal networks as fully functional mature neurons.


Also, new neurons are being produced daily even in the adult brain and even in those whose brains have been exposed to addictive drugs of any kind, including alcohol. However, there are many factors that influence neurogenesis and the quality of neurogenesis (for lack of a better term ATM) such as environment, age, genetics, stress etc.

[Samsara]

Here's an interesting piece.

A Neuroscientist takes a skeptical look into his own field and beyond:

FRIDAY, 17 JULY 2009

Antidepressants and Neurogenesis in Humans

How do antidepressants work? Some people will tell you that it’s all about neurogenesis. The theory goes that antidepressants increase the rate at which new neurones are created in a region called the dentate gyrus of the hippocampus, and that, somehow, this boom in the number of new hippocampal cells alleviates depression.

To date, however, all of the research linking antidepressants and neurogenesis has involved animals. It was generally assumed that if drugs altered neurogenesis in mice, the same thing happened in humans – but this was an assumption, and clearly a pretty big one. Now a new report from a New York-based team claims that antidepressants do enhance neurogenesis in people - Antidepressants increase neural progenitor cells in the human hippocampus.

The authors took post-mortem brain samples from three groups of people – those with no history of depression, those with depression who were not on antidepressants when they died, and depressed people who were on antidepressants. They counted the number of neural progenitor cells (NPCs) in the hippocampus using a stain which specifically marks these cells (anti-nestin).

Although like all post-mortem studies the sample size was small (n=19 total), depressed people taking antidepressants when they died had much higher NPC numbers, indicating greater neurogenesis, compared to the other two groups. (Control: 360±246; untreated: 1119±752; treated: 17229±3443).

The picture above illustrates this; the brown cells are NPCs, and there are evidently more of them in the antidepressant-taking person on the right compared to the control on the left. The authors presumably picked these images because they look different, so, pinch of salt. But still, as an antidepressant user myself, it's nice to see what might well be going on inside my skull at this moment.

The dentate gyrus of the hippocampus, the area where neurogenesis happens, was also larger in the antidepressant-treated group.

Is this evidence for the neurogenesis theory? Not exactly. It’s fairly good evidence that some antidepressants do boost hippocampal neurogenesis in humans, in accordance with the animal data. But we really don’t know what that means. It could just be a side effect, and nothing to do with how they work. I’ve previously written about some recent animal experiments finding that antidepressants have effects on behaviour even when neurogenesis is completely blocked. And notably, five of the seven antidepressant-treated patients in this study died from suicide. So, to put it bluntly, the drugs didn’t work very well, despite sending neurogenesis through the roof...

Boldrini, M., Underwood, M., Hen, R., Rosoklija, G., Dwork, A., John Mann, J., & Arango, V. (2009). Antidepressants increase neural progenitor cells in the human hippocampus Neuropsychopharmacology DOI: 10.1038/npp.2009.75