why CBT is not much effective on a drugged body

[stan]

until 4 years i had high difficult to take escalators in Paris gare train or in supermarket, being invade by terror vertigo, i made trying, telling me i have to exposure to that panik, the work of the CBT therapy cognitive, so told as the solution for panik during W/D in PP ; as i told i have several visible improvements recently during my waves pains;
i discover that i am able today to take an escalator without any panik in my body(just a mild sensation i control); it remembers me my state i was before taking paxil;
so i think i had during more than 4 years chemical iatrogenic induced panik, that my exposure CBT had not much effect , and that the repairing of my brain(nerves hormones) has solved something i thought i will have to relearn months until reaching my original state; so the time heals much more than forcing ourself; of course to reach our original state, or close
my efforts training to exposure seem have been useless, the time seems the key
the hormones heal themself and we are able again to have a function we do no more be able to do before, taking an ascalator quiet...

[Iggy131313]

Oh Stan, its so wonderful to hear your progress, can I ask, when you got off the esculater, did you feel dizzy and vertigo? if not were you like that before?

CBT is all great if you have a healthy brain to work on, it really is like going into world war 2 armed with a stick...however, when I feel a little better, in wondows I get interested, I think if I ever recover I would get some and some therapy to try to cope with what has happened, but maybe I wont need it by then, like yesterday I was fine and I was happy I was ok, so I didnt need any CBT, just as you say.

[Luc]

I could write it myself, Stan. The level to which it is physiologically-induced is unbelievable. When the window opens, it's like a completely different world. In my specific case, any attempt to try to divert my mind away from obsessive thoughts automatically generated more of them. It was like throwing petrol on fire. Most of my withdrawal (especially early phases of it) was simply hanging in there in a survival mode, to get to a window.

And yes, time is the most powerful of weapons we have. Of course, if one's case is less severe, or you feel it is helping you, you may try some techniques, but under no circumstances should anyone push it on oneself. This only creates more self-blame.

For those of IAWP-ers who are relatively new to the forum, please read this thread here: http://antidepressantwithdrawal.info...-Neuro-emotion It is exceptionally helpful in WD. I am 100% certain Sheila has created a scientific and cultural meme (neuro-emotions) which will be becoming more and more acknowledged even in the mainstream, and has already saved multiple lives (and sanities).

I'm so happy to read especially this part of your post!

i discover that i am able today to take an escalator without any panik in my body(just a mild sensation i control); it remembers me my state i was before taking paxil

[stan]

Oh Stan, its so wonderful to hear your progress, can I ask, when you got off the esculater, did you feel dizzy and vertigo? if not were you like that before?

CBT is all great if you have a healthy brain to work on, it really is like going into world war 2 armed with a stick...however, when I feel a little better, in wondows I get interested, I think if I ever recover I would get some and some therapy to try to cope with what has happened, but maybe I wont need it by then, like yesterday I was fine and I was happy I was ok, so I didnt need any CBT, just as you say.

when i got off before i was very bad, today a mild mild dizziness, i even tried to not keep the escalator with a hand and i am ok; before paxil i had a mild mild sign to be careful when in escalators; i was always a little anxious in my life but lived well with it, paxil was a big mistake

i think CBT is effective on a body without drug to learn better patterns because all neurones are natural health and can learn new things; in window i do not know what happens in escalators because i had so little windows and so short, a 5 minutes, a 15 minutes i no more remember; i had only less or more deep waves

[Moui]

Good to hear time has helped those things, you are a pioneer in this weird journey..I think from reading this forum and PP it seems time is king and even without intervention we get well, as long as no more messing with chemicals and living healthy. Maybe a little shaken and then we can tidy up the trauma:). I'm not very familiar with CBT. How does the thing you tried work in action stan? (I am starting therapy now when I'm functional but we have not really done much so far.)

I found some things helpful for me that I learnt mainly in self help books like Depersonalization Manual, but now I don't know anymore what was time and what was the things I did. Back then I did not know of WD so I thought that it was the things of course (this, exercise, supplements etc). Now it's confusing. For me to sit and not do anything was not bearable, couldn't relax, couldn't pay attention to book or movie.. if I stayed still like that I was boiling. Creepy Lsd terror, agitation, skin burning, depression,anhedonia,insomnia, paranoid thoughts going 100 miles an hour, pupils dilate,nausea when body prepare to fight, vision is off and face went numb..then I get even more frightened=more adrenaline=more symptoms... So what I did was as soon as I get up from bed I put on my ipod and listen to tapes and start doing something (some positive talk, self help books, stand up comedy, it had to be short because my attention was short). So when I had those weird scary lsd fears about everything and suddenly I hear a joke and laugh a bit it disrupt the pattern.. then it start again, laugh a bit again etc. This made it possible for me to go outside and do things but not live normal. Not even close to normal, but it made it more bearable. Like I mention in monas journal I had to multitask too.. cleaning with ipod (always carried this, everyday everywhere) was one example (my apartment was very clean then lol) and focusing on where to put items.. There were other rules in the book like never talk about DR(it was maybe my #1 symptom), don't write about it, forget as much as possible. Of course one rule was never allow DR to decide what can or can't do.. and that rule I could not follow even if I tried so I ended up back on drug. But now I know better thanks to the forums. I tried to ignore my thoughts and constantly busy busy. Morning to night keep doing something. But I don't know if this only worked because I was not extremely severe at that point and also over 6 months out and had seen little improvement. Hard to remember also, it was so different place and time, very desperate. 2nd attempt to quit so much more severe I didn't even bother to try.. This whole ssri experience for me has been like a journey through different alternative realities.. on drug, off drug.. weird places.

Now that I know of WD I don't know if this is good or not. I don't know if it help anyone else with different cns, different symptoms. I guess problem when knowing about WD is that it's impossible to follow the rules of the book. Because one isn't meant to read forums and remind themselves. Not supposed to ask "is this helping, is it not?" Just busy busy, don't allow time to think about symptoms. So I don't know, but I thought I would share this experience of mine anyway. It was the hardest thing in my life though and if I had to do again I don't know.. now that I know of ssri WD.

[Moui]

For everyone confused, I am not in a bad state now on the forums. I'm back on drug and tapering so many things I do (meditation etc) I probably would not be able to do previously.

[Moui]

In reply to Iggys message on monas Journal which I think I should mention here too is that when I talk about distracting the thoughts I don't just mean verbal speech in my head.
Although that was a part of it when you are in a chronic disassociation like dp&dr all associations about the nature of reality are twisted and wrong. Fabric of reality seems different. It's very very hard to
even remember.It's like how do you explain color green to a person who's blind. It's not like you feel normal (physical) but there is just thoughts in the head. The walls are caving in but they are not moving,
lying in bed feels like WWII crossfire with scary alien creatures, looking at people I used to visualize their intestines, air feels like a thick substance. Every object, thought, law of nature is evil and wrong and different. Things look scary like in a horror movie, even though they look the same. They feel scary and evil. In a physical way, like you feel nice when you hug someone. Instead all you feel is deep primal terror.
When it started (2month after last pill) I first went to a neurologist who said it was probably psychological. I went there and I remember I used the words 'I have difficulty understanding time and space'.It felt like some part of my brain was not processing information right . Then I thought I was going mad, into psychosis.. finally found out about derealization. To explain
my attitude in WD more you have to understand it was do or die to me. To me (I thought) I was off the drug since months, this is me, if I don't do anything I will stay like this forever.

TTGW mentioned distraction in her journal and also that derealization was a big symptom for her which I found interesting. I don't know if Iggy what you called 'pure madness' is DR?

[Sheila]

Moui – maybe one way to reconcile the apparent contradictions is that Stan is talking about trying to overcome a fear, and that did not work well in w/d. And, you also said you could not follow that part of the manual.

But, you did a lot of distraction just to get through the suffering as well as possible. It did help, it did keep the suffering from intensifying. And, you certainly learned good mental habits which were slowly changing your brain for the better.

I have also found that staying busy has helped me in w/d. I have learned tons, it keeps my anxiety from intensifying, and I have really changed myself and my mental habits by practicing managing my thoughts so assiduously for so long. OTOH, nothing I do seems to help my w/d-induced OCD.

[Iggy131313]

the acid insanity is probably dr, but I dont know, its like you say, describing the colour green.

Sheila - how does your ocd manifest? pure o?

[Moui]

Yes it's true. The part of just face everything and go - don't allow it to have control didn't work for me either. When I tried to push myself to normal life too soon in that state I became worse and stopped sleeping, then I went back on the pill because I thought I would speed up recovery (oops). It could have been a wave (it was all very up and down, not always that intense- sometimes DR just like pane of glass between me and world, sometimes 9th layer of hell) or it could have been overstimulation. Or both. I think in wd special rules might apply like taking starting small babysteps, using many crutches. Much downtime etc. At least that's what I would do with myself.
I'm really curious how these cbt practices work in action. If it's just force into situation, face every fear it doesn't sound too great. I mean even outside WD if that worked why would people still have social anxiety? I still today have social anxieties when in many situations, being judged, being in spotlight etc. And I have had to face this over and over again all my adult life.