Tru Fact

[Iggy131313]

the point is Moui, is that if you go slowly and more importantly do long holds your receptors should heal as you go along,

and if you go right the way down to 0.000000000000001 and get off from there, theres no way you should go into hell.

You have to remember that Fred is guessing at whats happening, he doesnt know whats going on in the brain anymore than we do, loads of people have had a very very hard withdrawal, gone back and had it easier.

also, if you can get down to 0.0000001 and feel ok at that, then maybe dont jump, keep tapering until you totally sneak it out of your system, you cant tell me that jumping from that amount would have a major impact,

when people are sensitised becasue of withdrawal and then jump from silly high amounts (which I actually think 1mg is when you are sensitised) then yes, things would be bad.

Fred was silly, he knows I think that, he went back on, and then CTed again at 5mg, this is why Im holding at 0.48.

Healing means stabilisation of the CNS, not upregulating receptors, in my opinion

[Iggy131313]

Just to clarify another point about tpering speed, to me, it seems so daft that poeple taper for years and then jump at 1mg, I mean they taper 1.4, 1.3, 1.2, 1.1, and then jump? why?

why is it important to taper slowly from 1.5 - 1, but ok to totally jump off at 1mg, alot of people believe that its extra important to go even slower at the lower doses, I believe this.

so what people call a slow taper, may very well not be that, and people could be jumping at 2mg or more, even 1mg which can be too much for someone who is, as I say, sensitised.

you found out that jumping at 2.5 was not good for you....now you hold, until you feel completely stable and then taper down as slowly as possible, it could take you 5 years until your ready to come off, even from under 1mg, but I believe this is the way to avoid trouble and long holds allowing the brain to repair itself as you go.

[Moui]

Thanks for taking the time to write that when you're so ill yourself, you're an angel. I will definitely try to make it as slow as I can. I think I'll need some equipment to make it to such small doses. I'll have to read that instruction again.

I know F doesn't know.. I guess it's just how the scary ideas have such a strong pull. Especially because I can't think of anyone who had a really bad wd and was able to make it smooth..all I can think is those who had a failed RI or RI'd but still ended up bad. I'm not always a very optimistic person so for me it's that maybe, Idk why you do it as from your posts you seemed so happy go lucky pre drugs. Or then you're just in denial. lol jk. I don't usually talk about my fears so much as I'm more of keep it inside and try to keep a good spirit.. and I have to clarify that these are just fears of mine and my situation (the adverse stuff).. and that yes it is possible that I might actually make a smoother landing. I just have a hard time trusting that with all I've gone through. It seems too good to be true.
I'll try some of this cathartic (?) fear releasing, sorry guys for the following huge rant:

Each time I've started the drug I've had akathisia and agitation which has continued until I've made a drop (50% usually), then it's been like the gear that had been in overdrive was released and the good feelings flowed. Bruno2006 somewhere used a metaphor of ssris being like the romans enslaving the gauls to work harder. That's how it was for me.. At the start 100% of gauls were alive but when I quit 1st time 30% remained after only 4 month whipping of 20-10-5mg. After one year of WD the population had risen to 65%. Then I went back on and the enslaving and whipping continued. At first the 5mg after 10mg overdrive of whipping seemed to work, but then the gauls couldn't keep it up anymore(first pain episodes), the romans had to cut back their whipping to 2.5mg. Fast forward to next attempt to quit and at that time the WD was far worse and only 10% were alive. Again back on drug... more whipping.. gauls couldn't handle 2.5 anymore (more pain side effect)... then 2... then 1.8 caused them to fall to the ground exhausted. Now the whipping continues at 0.65mg and every day at the whipping time I fear the gauls can't handle it anymore.

Another thing is that when I joined PP I was a week or two from my close encounter with suicidality and RI and yes the major bad stuff was gone but the RI didn't bring me back fully. Outbursts of anger, confusion, a coldness/sadness like I was the last human on earth, my emotions felt dry.. I actually used to listen to this because it sounded how I felt (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8VoZVpeIL-Y), sounds and noises and sudden changes aggravated me, I had a hard time reading the forum and my eyes were bouncing all over, it was very hard to continue the weightlifting as I felt a constant spinning.. to me that was mild-moderate compared to the bad stuff. So my plan was to stay at 2.5 until that would slowly ease and then I would do the superduper slow taper. Some of it did ease slowly but the major change happened in Sept or Oct and it didn't feel like gradual healing.. it was similar to the pain stuff. I had an unnatural feeling of pressure buildup behind my eyes (also similar to that scooping thing I've mentioned) like they would pop out and it continued to grow for about 4 days? And then it started to even out but it felt really weird and not natural.. but my mood went up instantly at the same time. Pretty soon followed a severe pain episode. Had to drop to 2.. and so on. And as I've continued to drop and do the other things I feel healthier and my mood has continued to be better. (I've finally had some depression especially this week but still mild). I question have I improved or am I just more 'under the effect?'. There are things which would indicate that my cns is healthier like my concentration and the vertigo gone.

My hope is that I can do this slowly and the pain stuff doesn't return.. I'm just scared. If it were even worse than the 2nd time I would be so ill. It had been a pretty gray day yesterday and then that post and another from frankdee hit a nerve. I broke down and cried last night for a good 20 minutes .. I just wanted to go back to simpler times .. I cried for me. I cried for you,what all of us here are going through... I thought about Bilo..
Hey hows that for an attitude. I seem to have recomposed myself today mostly. No other choice but to hope for this long slow taper and get up and keep going no matter what happens.

[Iggy131313]

Moui, Frankdee has got married and had a child, works full time and has recovered alot.

He has blunted emotions and is unable to take some suppliments but on the whole he is alot better.

I know how scary it is, and yes, I was SO happy go lucky, so happy. Im destroyed.

But you hold, then you slowly taper and ok, lets say you get to 0.01 and your scared, then dont come off, just keep tapering, or dont, you dont HAVE to come off it, remember that. if you took 0.01 for the rest of your life and was ok, then your ok, I dont know if it would last, but how could 0.01 poop out? it couldnt be doing anything.

or you just taper for the rest of your life lol, I mean, there has to be a point where 0.000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 0000000000000001 isnt doing anything and you could sneak it out of your nervous system without it being a big deal. also if you omega 3 dosing that could really help you...you CTed from 2.5 last time didnt you?

I dont think its that your more under the effect...just keep tapering and holding in between and lets see.

everything is going to be ok.

also please remember that Frank drinks heavily

[Iggy131313]

I totally understand your fears but yes I believ its much more than possible for you to have a smoother landing, MUCH MUCH smoother.....hold on, let this wave of depression pass, its prob w/d related, healing is happening whilst you taper, thats the whole point, and the holds allow for much greater healing, letting the brain catch up...

i think I may hold until christmas, hold with me, and we can taper together from there, yes it might take forever and a day,. but that doesnt matter, life is what matters, allowing for healing matters, any quality or enjoyment we can get matters.

also, no we may not have anyone that has had a terrible time and then an easy time (although there are many many of those cases, I just dont know who they are) but we dont know anyone who has tapered right down to zero in a very controlled way, so lets show everyone how to do it eh? remember Im in the same posiiton as you but in severe hell also, you are stable now, that is good, very good. and we taper, and taper and taper until we are basically having water

[Iggy131313]

Moui, have you read the making liquid thread on SA, have a good look through, you may need a syringe but not too much else, have a good read and make sure you are taking a consistant dose every day now.

Its ok to be scared, and its ok to talk about being scared, this is scary, but you can really have control over it, that will make it less scary for you, and you are starting from a stable point, but you must allow healing time in between your drops, like I plan to, theres a time for tapering, and a time for holding, and a place for you to come when you are afraid of the future....I too long for a simpler time, but try to remind myself as Matt samet said ''I am still me and this is still my life'' it may not be a life I like, or even want, I would sacrifice it, but I cannot, and I have to hope, and you have to hope, but your in a good position, your atble, your not in distress with symptoms and your in control....

Remind yourself often that your in control of this situation, you do this on your terms, slowly and carefully....think of it like a bridge of ice, you must make yourway carefully, slowly, stopping occasionally, the people who run accross slip and fall, your not going to do that, youve seen that it doesnt work, and fallen yourself once but was able to pull yourself back on, now you proceed carefully, slowly to the other side.

Im the one scraeming her head of behind you, but Im trying to make my way across with 2 broken legs and blind. lol

Plus Im carrying a child over with me.

[Iggy131313]

My my im spamming this thread, here is something that Alto from SA said to me, I keep it in a file of things that make me feel better, I think this may help you...I have a million things from this site and emials etc, but just this one from SA

Iggy, I think many of your assumptions about withdrawal syndrome and your destiny are incorrect. It is possible for healing to happen while you are tapering, and while you have a small amount of Celexa in your body.

Healing means stabilization of the nervous system. The excessive dosage of Celexa and the many ups and downs in your dosage since then has kept your nervous system in an uproar. Stop making changes and let your nervous system settle down.

As I've said many times, if I were you, I'd hold the Celexa dosage, stop worrying about your destiny, and do what you can to help healing.

So in particular the first line of this is what should help you, does that help? and Alto is one of the big experts in withdrawal syndrome, along with the peple on here of course

[Moui]

Sorry for OT derail, I have a tendency to do that on forums :)

Yeah. This depression is nothing, this evening it's barely here, in fact I wish I had more so I knew healing was happening. I feel like I shouldn't be allowed to be afraid when I know how bad state you and others are in. But because of such recent adverse stuff and the trauma of last summer I don't feel like I'm on safe waters at all. The memory is still there and it just got awakened. I was there I was that person ready to take my life and no it was not a beg for help.. Even if I end up there or worse again I'm determined to see this through with you and the rest no matter what. Last time it came so suddenly and I didn't know what was happening, hadn't read recovery stories etc.. I didn't know what we know now. This is the blessing part to have found out about wd. I'm not carrying a child and I have no idea what that must be like but I know my mother would have been destroyed. And my father would probably also not be able to handle it. What would happen to you if Freddie did that? My brother would probably be scarred but live on.. We just have to accept that we are tied to others. We'll get across this icy bridge face in the snow and dirt or dancing and singing ..
I'm so prepared for things to go to hell that I have a really hard time allowing this idea that it might not.. I don't know if it matters. It doesn't cause any symptoms. Ok enough pity party. Thanks for replying and I hope I don't spread bad energy. :)

Franks update on his life was great.. I always thought he was still basicly living in a darkened room writing angry posts every few months. And he has so many differences and things going on even if he's another one who had an adverse reaction. It just ignited those memories of mine.

I'm definitely going do that slow thing as long as the pain doesn't come. Alto sounds like a great person.. I don't read SA much. I wonder why we are all so separated.

[Sheila]

I think there are tons of people who had a bad w/d and re-did it well, Moui. Sorry, I don’t know names. It’s been a long time since I was in the cohort that was tapering.

I honestly don’t quite understand why you’re so worried. So, either I have the facts wrong, or perhaps you are having neuro-anxiety and it has settled on this one fear in particular.

If I understand correctly, you have tapered off too fast twice? And the first time you didn’t even know you were having w/d? (That happened to me too.) And the last time you jumped off at 2.5?

So, Parox posted an article in the Spanish forum (in English) that shows that very small doses of this class of meds has a very big impact on receptors. That’s why one shouldn’t jump off at 2.5. People just don’t know this, though. Plus, there’s a natural tendency to just bite the bullet, yank off the bandaid, etc.

Now, I understand you also are not free to just sit on the drug forever, or you start to get bad pain. But, it seems like it’s working quite well for you to let the pain be a sign that it’s time to taper, and then proceed slowly.

Meanwhile, you know so, so, so, so much more than you did in the past. You’ve cleaned up your diet, gained insight, developed your meditation practice, exercise, sound like you have excellent self-care / mental hygiene habits, and started a decent-sounding therapy.

Your situation now bears no resemblance to your past experiences. Now, I do understand that they were very, very bad, and anyone would feel some trepidation, but, rationally, you seem in an excellent position. I just don’t see how the same thing could possibly happen again. ;)

[Moui]

I do see it happening! Lol.. No it's not neuro-anxiety. It's anxiety, or concern. I'm not shaking unable to sleep can't get it off my head -type anxious.

I guess my concern is that no I haven't been healing but I'm just riding that 'downshift in gear' that has brought the good feelings before. It's this difference in me and others. For me more drug hasn't meant better feeling- it's the shift from high gear to lower, first feel worse (overdrive, akathisia) then make a drop and feel better (release, flow of good feelings), even my last RI was like that. Especially as I know one year was not enough to heal even that initial short exposure let alone the rest. Makes no sense that I would now be healed or close. It's not anxiety or depression that worries me, it's the lack of them.. I was expecting taper to mean that I would get bad symptoms but that it would be more bearable. But no, it's been eerily quiet wd symptom wise, and I'm pretty familiar with those as they have been the same always. This might sound so nutso to everyone currently feeling like thrash. But it's exactly that.. because my past experiences were so horrid this seems too good. I wish I had some waves of derealization.. some skin burning.. some anhedonia and insomnia. Not at that insane level but some so I knew ..

But yes I do agree that how could it be possible if I went to 0.0whatever to crash from that. I'm going to put my faith in this and resume my health habits. It may be obvious but I skipped some of that, ha.